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This paper has two parts. The first is concerned with a variant of a family of games introduced by Holy and Schlicht, that we call Welch games. Player II having a winning strategy in the Welch game of length [Formula: see text] on [Formula: see text] is equivalent to weak compactness. Winning the game of length [Formula: see text] is equivalent to [Formula: see text] being measurable. We show that for games of intermediate length [Formula: see text], II winning implies the existence of precipitous ideals with [Formula: see text]-closed, [Formula: see text]-dense trees. The second part shows the first is not vacuous. For each [Formula: see text] between [Formula: see text] and [Formula: see text], it gives a model where II wins the games of length [Formula: see text], but not [Formula: see text]. The technique also gives models where for all [Formula: see text] there are [Formula: see text]-complete, normal, [Formula: see text]-distributive ideals having dense sets that are [Formula: see text]-closed, but not [Formula: see text]-closed.